The spatial relationships among the elements of Jan Micker’s 1652 masterwork Bird’s Eye View of Amsterdam, which he painted long before such a vantage point became possible, are much more subtle and intricate than they are in most other seventeenth-century Dutch paintings.
a. which he painted long before such a vantage point became possible, are much more subtle and intricate than they are in

b. painted by the artist long before such a vantage point was to become possible, are much more subtle and intricate than those among

c. which he painted long before the possibility of such a vantage point, are much more subtle and intricate than in

d. painted long before the possibility of such a vantage point, are much more subtle and intricate than they are in

e. painted long before such a vantage point became possible, are much more subtle and intricate than those in

My question is. The mgmat 4th edition states that which, that, those and these should not be used as pronouns... Pg 71 4the ed..
How do you go about this sentence..confusion D & E.....(they and those)
Stacey/Ron plz help....

page 71 says no such thing..

_________________
Tim Sanders
Manhattan GMAT Instructor

Wats the OA? lets not leave any questions unanswered/ dangling!!!
is it E?
I boiled down to B and E because "those" has to be used for multiple objects.... and B got eliminated beacuse "was to become possible" phrase

it is indeed E..

_________________
Tim Sanders
Manhattan GMAT Instructor

Hi,

I have a little doubt regarding the OA - E to this question.

I quote Phrase + "COMMA" + "VERBing-" rule stated by Ron here ( in Post #2 in the thread here - http://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/adverbial-participles-ing-t11705.html



If E is the correct answer, then the same rules applies for

Phrase + COMMA + Past Participle

Kindly confirm.

Hi Tim,

Why does the pronoun have to stand for the entire noun phrase.
The sentence as it reads .. The spatial relationships ...are more subtle and intricate .. than .. they are in other paintings.

I realize that 'they are in' is incorrect in choices A) and D) , for obvious reasons but why is 'those' used in Choice E).

Can you kindly give us some more examples of when those could be used to modify a phrase and how to identify if a noun (The spatial relationships) or a phrase (The spatial relationships ..Amsterdam ) is being modified?

Thanks,
EB

Hi,

Ricky, that rule (Phrase + Comma + Verbing) is for -ing forms, not for past participles.

bhide_esha, I am not sure I fully understand your question about why "those" is used. Are you saying that "those" is not required at all? I will try and explain what I understand:

The comparison is between the spacial relationships among the elements in Jan Micker's particular painting and spacial relationships among the elements of the other paintings in the 17th century.

If you don't use the pronoun, you will end up comparing the spacial relationships among the elements to other paintings. This is logically not correct.

If I have misunderstood your question, please post back.

To answer your other question on how to identify what is being modified, I think I will check the context first i.e. what is the author of the sentence trying to say or what is his intended subject. If he is using a modifier, should it be modifying a noun, verb or the entire clause? This will help in getting to the correct answer.

Hope this helps

Sunil

Hi Sunil,

Thanks for the reply.

I was tying to figure out the use of the specific pronoun those.

I understand the OA. My question is regarding the use of pronoun they vs. those.

So, in this example .. if one of the options had been ..

painted long before such a vantage point became possible, are much more subtle and intricate than they are in.

The sentence would then read :
The spatial relationships among the elements of Jan Micker’s 1652 masterwork Bird’s Eye View of Amsterdam,painted long before such a vantage point became possible, are much more subtle and intricate than they [The spatial relationships] are in most other seventeenth-century Dutch paintings.

Would this option be correct? Because clearly here 'they' stands for Spatial relationships- a noun and not the noun phrase - 'The spatial relationships among the elements '.

Yup, that is an interesting point you make.

I read up the section on Demonstrative Pronouns, MGMAT SC guide chapter 5. One of the differences between "they" and "those" is that personal pronouns such as they or it mean the same actual thing as the antecedent, whereas that or those indicate new copy or copies of the antecedent.

Example used in the book:
The money spent by her parents is less than THAT spent by her children.
The money spent by her parents is more than IT was expected to be.

In the first sentence, the two pots of money are different. In the second sentence, we are referring to the same pot of money.

Using the logic above, using "those" to represent spatial relationships means that we are referring to different spatial relationships than those in Jan Micker's painting.

Regards

Sunil

Wow! Sunil, that's an awesome way to look at the difference between answer choices d & e. Like bhide_esha, I was also confounded at why 'They' was incorrect here.

Can anyone from the Manhattan staff comment on this understanding also?

Once again, Sunil nails it! Very nice!

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Jamie Nelson
ManhattanGMAT Instructor

Good point Sunil! Thanks for that reply. I also had the same doubt, which is cleared now.

I've another question:
What does "those" in choices (B) & (E) stand for?

Choice(B) is:
"painted by the artist long before such a vantage point was to become possible, are much more subtle and intricate than those among"
MGMAT CAT explanation for choice (B) says:
The preposition “among” has the wrong object (“most other seventeenth-century Dutch paintings”), suggesting the existence of “spatial relationships” among the paintings themselves rather than among the elements depicted in the paintings.

Choice(E) is:
"painted long before such a vantage point became possible, are much more subtle and intricate than those in"
The explanation for (E) says:
In this parallel construction, the relative pronoun those stands for the noun spatial relationships.

Shouldn't "those" in (E) stand for "The spatial relationships among the elements" ? Because the spatial relationships are NOT among the paintings; they are among the ELEMENTS of a painting - isn't it?

Does (E)'s explanation mean to say "spatial relationships among the elements" ? Or am I missing something entirely different here?

Hi gmat.acer,

You make a good point.

The only possible explanation I can think of is that "among the elements" can be thought of as a short essential modifier that describes spatial relationships. When "those" is used to refer to the spatial elements, then it is obvious that we are talking about spatial relationships [among the elements].

We will have to wait for Jamie or another instructor to clarify this. But you may be right, otherwise it doesn't make sense.

Regards

Sunil

What does "vantage point" here mean?

Acc. to freeonlinedictionary, it means

"A position that affords a broad overall view or perspective, as of a place or situation."

Can anybody correlate this to the original sentence?

How can painting be a place?

Absolutely right, Sunil! Great to see you here again. :-)

_________________
Jamie Nelson
ManhattanGMAT Instructor