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 Post subject: The new image of Stone Age people as systematic hunters of
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 2:51 am 
The new image of Stone Age people as systematic hunters of large animals, rather than merely scavenging for meat, have emerged from the examination from the examination of tools found in Germany, including three wooden spears that archaeologists believe to be above 400,000 years old.

A
B. as mere scavenging for meat, have emerged from examining tools found in Germany, which include
C. as mere meat scavengers, has emerged from examining tools found in Germany that includes
D. mere scavengers of meat, has emerged from the examination of tools found in Germany, which includes
E. mere scavengers of meat, has emerged from the examination of tools found in Germany, including

A and B are wrong because "has" should be used instead.
C is wrong because Germany doesn't include the three wooden spears.
Between D and E, I ended up with E since "which" *usually* refers to the preceding noun, which is Germany here. So it has the same problem in C.
However, I don't think that "including" modifies "emerge", "new image" or "Germany". What is the function of "including" here? It seems like modifying "tools". Can we really do that??

Thanks in advance.


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 Post subject: Re: The new image of Stone Age people as systematic hunters
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:04 am 
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ManhattanGMAT Staff


Posts: 12850
Hei wrote:
What is the function of "including" here? It seems like modifying "tools".


i would agree. given that the other answer choices are wrong - for exactly the reasons you've specified (well done!) - i'm in fact forced to agree.


Hei wrote:
Can we really do that??


it would appear so.

the gmat makes its own rules, so it appears we've just learned another one: participial modifiers with -ing, even when they serve as adjectives, have more freedom than do relative pronouns such as 'which'.

good eye.


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 Post subject: Re: The new image of Stone Age people as systematic hunters
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:12 pm 
Hei wrote:
The new image of Stone Age people as systematic hunters of large animals, rather than merely scavenging for meat, have emerged from the examination from the examination of tools found in Germany, including three wooden spears that archaeologists believe to be above 400,000 years old.

A
B. as mere scavenging for meat, have emerged from examining tools found in Germany, which include
C. as mere meat scavengers, has emerged from examining tools found in Germany that includes
D. mere scavengers of meat, has emerged from the examination of tools found in Germany, which includes
E. mere scavengers of meat, has emerged from the examination of tools found in Germany, including




This question was extremely difficult for me. I had trouble deciding between C,D, and E. Hopefully someone can clarify the rules.

1) The comparison rule: The new image of Stone Age people as ______, rather than _______
Why are you not supposed to keep parallel structure here? The structure of "as systematic hunters of large animals, rather than as mere meat scavengers."
looked right to me.
I ended up eliminating this choice because the "that includes three wooden spears that archaeologists believe..." seemed wrong to me.

2) The modifier rule:
Is the "....tools found in Germany, which includes..." wrong because it makes it is used as a relative pronoun?


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:36 pm 
the parallism in C looks right to me too. however, using "that" to retrictively modify Germany is kind of illogical to me.


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 Post subject: The new image
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:13 am 
In the above sentence "That" has to refer to Germany, cause "That" is restricitve, even if we allow "That" to pass by Germany (sometimes it is used to modify the the subject and not the object of preposition) then it has to refer to "Tools", and Tools found in Germany that includes is a blatant subject verb mismatch.


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 Post subject: Re: The new image of Stone Age people as systematic hunters
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:21 am 
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ManhattanGMAT Staff


Posts: 12850
Anonymous wrote:
1) The comparison rule: The new image of Stone Age people as ______, rather than _______
Why are you not supposed to keep parallel structure here?


you ARE supposed to keep parallel structure. ironically, that parallel structure is another reason why (c) is worse than (d) or (e).

to wit, look at the blue parts below. note that "rather than" is a one-part signal - i.e., unlike two-part constructions such as "both ... and" and "not only ... but also", it lacks a left-hand part indicating the beginning of the first parallel element. therefore, you can choose to start the first parallel element wherever you want - meaning that you can choose to include or exclude "as" at your convenience:

(c)
The new image of Stone Age people as systematic hunters of large animals, rather than as mere meat scavengers, has...
this parallelism is acceptable, but there are two undesirable things:
* "hunters OF large animals" isn't truly parallel to "meat scavengers"
* "meat scavengers" is awkward / unclear (you probably won't know this unless you're a native speaker of english and/or a writer)

(d)(e)
The new image of Stone Age people as systematic hunters of large animals, rather than mere scavengers of meat, has...
this is better parallelism (notice that "as" is excluded from the first part this time).
* note the EXACT parallelism between "hunters OF large animals" and "scavengers OF meat".

Quote:
2) The modifier rule:
Is the "....tools found in Germany, which includes..." wrong because it makes it is used as a relative pronoun?

yes.
this construction implies, unambiguously (and absurdly), that germany itself "includes" 3 wooden spears.
3 all the way!


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 Post subject: Re: The new image of Stone Age people as systematic hunters of
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:32 pm 
Offline
Students


Posts: 68
I had a hard time choosing between C and E.
Outside the parallelism error, why is the usage of including better than that.. ?

How does the ING modifer work here ? I thought 'that' refers to tools instead of germany...

thanks


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 Post subject: Re: The new image of Stone Age people as systematic hunters of
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:07 am 
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ManhattanGMAT Staff


Posts: 12850
kramacha1979 wrote:
I had a hard time choosing between C and E.
Outside the parallelism error, why is the usage of including better than that.. ?


by far the easiest way to kill (c) is subject-verb agreement: "includes" (singular) doesn't make sense, because "tools" (the clearly intended antecedent) is plural.

there is also a VERY subtle difference in meaning here, which is wholly idiomatic.
namely:
if you say "tools that include X", then X is A COMPONENT of the tools. so, for instance, "tools that include a bottle opener" means that a bottle opener is one of many attachments.
on the other hand, "tools(,) including X" implies that X is ONE OF the tools. so, for instance, "tools(,) including a bottle opener" means that the bottle opener itself is one of the tools in question.

clearly, S-V agreement is the easier way to go.


Quote:
I thought 'that' refers to tools instead of germany...

thanks


it's supposed to.
you know that (c) is the wrong answer, right?
the correct answer to this problem is (e).

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 Post subject: Re: The new image of Stone Age people as systematic hunters of
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:58 am 
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Students


Posts: 5
though not underlined :

I have one query :

is not RATHER THAN --> redundant ?

or is it ...

More ..... Rather Than ... that is redundant ?


thanks


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 Post subject: Re: The new image of Stone Age people as systematic hunters of
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:06 am 
Offline
ManhattanGMAT Staff


Posts: 12850
anoo_anand wrote:
though not underlined :

I have one query :

is not RATHER THAN --> redundant ?


hmm?

"rather than" is one of the most common constructions in written english.

Quote:
or is it ...

More ..... Rather Than ... that is redundant ?


thanks


yes, that would be redundant, if those were being paired in the construction.

if "more" were part of another construction, though, that would be fine:
i opted to use my coupon to buy more food rather than more drinks
... this sentence is perfectly fine, since the construction is just "rather than". (the word "more" appears twice, but it's part of the parallel constructions -- it's not paired with "rather than".)

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 Post subject: Re: The new image of Stone Age people as systematic hunters of
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:52 am 
Offline
Students


Posts: 5
Hi,

I remember that some time if the thing before the ",which" is appositive phrase, which can modify the NOUN before the phrase. So if the ",which includes" in D change to ",which include" will it be correct?
is "including" in E somehow may modify the subject of the sentence?

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: The new image of Stone Age people as systematic hunters of
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:54 am 
Offline
ManhattanGMAT Staff


Posts: 12850
allandu wrote:
Hi,

I remember that some time if the thing before the ",which" is appositive phrase, which can modify the NOUN before the phrase. So if the ",which includes" in D change to ",which include" will it be correct?


it would still be inferior, though for reasons that are probably too subtle to be tested on the gmat.
specifically, if you had "tools, which include X", then the implication would be that X is actually a component of each tool. (for instance, "...tools, which include carbon-fiber handles" --> each of the tools includes a carbon-fiber handle.)
by contrast, "tools, including X" implies that X is one of the tools.

Quote:
is "including" in E somehow may modify the subject of the sentence?

Thanks


nope -- "including" is an exception to the usual comma -ing rules.
the best way to think about "including" is to consider it a preposition, i.e., don't think about it as a -ing construction at all.

usually, comma + "including" refers to the noun or noun phrase that is located before the comma, as it does in the correct answer here.

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 Post subject: Re: The new image of Stone Age people as systematic hunters of
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:33 am 
Offline
Students


Posts: 15
I have a query on the use of 'That' and 'Which'

As I understand, 'which' refers to the noun immediately preceding the comma(,), I am confused on the use of "that" in such a context.
For example,

as mere meat scavengers, has emerged from examining tools found in Germany, "which" includes

Here, 'which' indicates towards 'Germany'.

as mere meat scavengers, has emerged from examining tools found in Germany "that" includes

Here, what does 'that' refer to. Does, 'That' refer to the preceding noun or to the subject of the clause.

Thanks.
Punzo.


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 Post subject: Re: The new image of Stone Age people as systematic hunters of
 Post Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:57 pm 
Offline
ManhattanGMAT Staff


Posts: 91
Hi Punzo,

Good question. In this case, "that" is a relative pronoun that always modifies the noun that immediately precedes it. In this case then, that is modifying Germany. Thus the use of "that" is incorrect for the same reasons you cited regarding the use of the ", which."

It is helpful to remember that ", which" , "that" , "who" and "whose" typically signal noun modifiers and when you see these words you should check to see whether they correctly modify the noun that they touch.

Thanks,
Chris

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Chris Brusznicki
MGMAT Instructor
Chicago, IL


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 Post subject: Re: The new image of Stone Age people as systematic hunters of
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:46 am 
Offline
Students


Posts: 17
Had the "that" being refereed to "tools", shouldn't it be in plural form i.e. "those"?
So in that case, use of "that" is anyways wrong.
Please correct if I am interpreting it wrong?

Also, is it a universal rule that for all these relative pronoun(e.g who,which,that etc) we always check for the noun immediately preceding it(even if we are using this relative pronoun without comma).


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