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 Post subject: Re: Annual stock holders meeting...
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:34 am 
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ManhattanGMAT Staff


Posts: 12951
aps_asks wrote:
Hi Instructors ,

Can We do a split with regard to parallelism first and eliminate all options except D and E ?

Please let me know your comments.


the order in which you handle splits is irrelevant, as you will ultimately end up with the same result. perhaps i'm misunderstanding the question.

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 Post subject: Re: Annual stock holders meeting...
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:40 am 
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ManhattanGMAT Staff


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debarya wrote:
Hi,

Can you kindly confirm why A is wrong? Is it because of wrong usage of including or unidiomatic threat from?


the parallelism in that option doesn't make sense.
in that wording, the two parallel elements are "threat" and "(declining) sales". this is incorrect: the sales themselves are not a challenge facing the company.
to be sufficiently accurate, the sentence should state that the decline in sales, not the sales themselves, poses a threat.

Quote:
Also, C can we say usage of both include and among causes redundancy.


yes.
note that this question was answered 2 posts before yours; please read the thread in its entirety before posting. thanks.

Quote:
Also, from one of GMAT official blog, I figured that GMAT has removed/ atleast removed idioms from their test questions, do we still need to remember such idiom list??


i believe that idioms could still be tested, if the particular choice of idiom has a fundamental effect on the meaning of the sentence.
on the other hand, the test writers have an explicitly stated goal of NOT writing problems that can simply be solved by memorization (in fact, they wrote this in that very same blog post), so i don't imagine you're going to be seeing many problems that will test idioms that don't affect the context of the sentence.

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 Post subject: Re: Annual stock holders meeting...
 Post Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 10:57 am 
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Course Students


Posts: 187
Question about the modifier 'including'

This is a noun modifier that modifies the noun right before itself or does it have some flexibilty? It is used to express the specific attributes or a list related to that noun.

Please confirm.

'included' - Is this a noun modifier always? Will this also modify the noun that comes right before?


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 Post subject: Re: Annual stock holders meeting...
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:46 am 
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ManhattanGMAT Staff


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"included" should always be a noun modifier if it's a modifier at all (i can't think of any exceptions but they may exist), and when used as a noun modifier it follows the usual rules - it must touch the noun it modifies or be connected to the modified noun through a chain of other modifiers of the same noun..

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 Post subject: Re: Annual stock holders meeting...
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:16 pm 
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Posts: 618
At the annualstock holders meeting, investors heard a presentation on the numerous challenges facing the company, //including among them the threat from a rival's multi-billion dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for// the company's powerful microprocessor chip.

A. including among them the threat from a rival's multi-billion dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for
B. which includes the threat of a rival's multi-billion dollar patent-infringement suit and declining sales of
C. included among these the threat from a rival's multi-billion dollar patent-infringement suit as well as a decline in sales for
D. among them the threat of a rival's multi-billion dollar patent-infringement suit and the decline in sales of
E. among these the threat from a rival's multi-billion dollar patent-infringement suit as well as the decline in sales for

Ron used to say that
"this/that" never is a stand alone pronoun/noun

I infer that "these" which is plural of "this" can not be stand alone pronoun

so "these" in D and E is wrong flat out

is my inference correct ? pls help confirm


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 Post subject: Re: Annual stock holders meeting...
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:35 am 
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ManhattanGMAT Staff


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where did Ron say that? i think we have direct evidence to the contrary on #34 from the verbal supplement 2nd edition..

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Tim Sanders
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 Post subject: Re: Annual stock holders meeting...
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:07 am 
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Posts: 618
tim wrote:
where did Ron say that? i think we have direct evidence to the contrary on #34 from the verbal supplement 2nd edition..


Thank you Tim
"this,these" are never used as stand alone pronouns on gmat. This is why "these" in this question is wrong, flat out.

"that,those" are used in ONLY paralel structure and refers to a noun which is different from previous noun.
in contrast, "it,they" refers to the same noun as previous noun and can be used in non paralel structure.

question 34 VR 2nd has correct answer D. In D, "that" is used in the paralel structure. " amount of energy used by equipment" is parallel with "that used by unobstructive equipment" . This is consistent with my saying.

sorry for saying not clearly.

in my above thingking correct?


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 Post subject: Re: Annual stock holders meeting...
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:28 pm 
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ManhattanGMAT Staff


Posts: 4981
Location: Southwest Airlines, seat 21C
please understand we cannot spend all of our time on the forums confirming "rules" of yours that seem to come from nowhere. as Ron and i have both told you numerous times, your biggest obstacle to success on the GMAT is that you seem to be trying to boil everything down to a rule without ever approaching any real understanding of the sentences. moreover, it is starting to look like you are just making up random "rules" to see if one will stick - as evidenced by this thread, where you asked about a "rule" that i had a clear counterexample for and then changed the "rule" slightly to ask for confirmation again.

STOP TRYING TO DERIVE RULES!!!

if a rule does not show up somewhere reputable where you can look it up, it is probably not worth having as a rule. put another way, every rule you ask us for verification for falls into one of two categories: (1) it is already written down as a rule somewhere, and you can look it up and verify it for yourself, or (2) it is not already written down somewhere, and therefore it is probably not worth remembering as a rule even if it is true..

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Tim Sanders
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 Post subject: Re: Annual stock holders meeting...
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:07 am 
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Posts: 16
hi Ron.

I choose A though I think it is kind of weird.
I'm really confused why we should eliminate including.
Actually I don't know why it should be" among them"
Is it sth like REVERSAL?
"the challenges are among the threat and the decline blabla", am I right?

Also, I remember that among applies to sth not fewer than 3, if it is 2, we should use and.
?.?(confused)

I'm not a native speaker, hope you can understand what I ask.

desire for a reply.plz


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 Post subject: Re: Annual stock holders meeting...
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:20 am 
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ManhattanGMAT Staff


Posts: 12951
ivonnecy wrote:
hi Ron.

I choose A though I think it is kind of weird.
I'm really confused why we should eliminate including.


There's nothing wrong with "including" by itself.
The issue is that the combination of "including" and "among them" is redundant.

(The correct answer would still be correct if "among them" were replaced with "including".)

Quote:
Is it sth like REVERSAL?
"the challenges are among the threat and the decline blabla", am I right?


That's the intended meaning, yes.

I don't know what you mean by "reversal", but it doesn't make much sense to conceptualize this construction as a literal transformation of another sentence.
Just be familiar with (a) how it looks, and (b) what it means. (In fact, this is good advice for any grammatical construction at all.)


Quote:
Also, I remember that among applies to sth not fewer than 3, if it is 2, we should use and.


That's correct.
The company is facing "numerous challenges", implying that there are several of them. Two things couldn't be described as "numerous".

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 Post subject: Re: Annual stock holders meeting...
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:57 am 
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Posts: 16
RonPurewal wrote:
ivonnecy wrote:
hi Ron.

I choose A though I think it is kind of weird.
I'm really confused why we should eliminate including.


There's nothing wrong with "including" by itself.
The issue is that the combination of "including" and "among them" is redundant.

(The correct answer would still be correct if "among them" were replaced with "including".)

Quote:
Is it sth like REVERSAL?
"the challenges are among the threat and the decline blabla", am I right?


That's the intended meaning, yes.

I don't know what you mean by "reversal", but it doesn't make much sense to conceptualize this construction as a literal transformation of another sentence.
Just be familiar with (a) how it looks, and (b) what it means. (In fact, this is good advice for any grammatical construction at all.)


Quote:
Also, I remember that among applies to sth not fewer than 3, if it is 2, we should use and.


That's correct.
The company is facing "numerous challenges", implying that there are several of them. Two things couldn't be described as "numerous".



thanks Ron,
But for the last point, "the threat and the decline" there are only two things! threat and decline.

the three apples are divided among the two boys---->wrong
the three apples are divided among the three boys---->right

so I assume that,
the challenges are among the threat and the decline---->wrong


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 Post subject: Re: Annual stock holders meeting...
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:58 am 
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ManhattanGMAT Staff


Posts: 4981
Location: Southwest Airlines, seat 21C
"among them" indeed implies that there are three or more challenges. And the correct answer happens to identify two of those challenges. Just because the sentence doesn't specifically name three or more of the challenges doesn't mean there aren't three or more challenges.

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Tim Sanders
Manhattan GMAT Instructor


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