Source: GMAT Prep

In 1988, the council on Economic Priorities began publishing Shopping for a Better World, with the sample thesis of consumers having the power to change companies by the simple expedient of refusing to buy.


A. Same
B. which had the simple thesis of consumers having
C. where the thesis was simple: consumers having
D. with a thesis that is a simple one: consumers have
E. whose thesis was simple: consumers have

OA: E

Can someone explain why A and B are wrong?
Thank you very much in advance!

note: i'll assume that "sample" in the original is meant to be "simple".

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in both (a) and (b), "having the power..." is an -ing modifier that's not followed by a comma. therefore, it's a modifier that serves as an adjective, modifying the immediately preceding noun (= "consumers").

the problem, then, is that this modifier - since it's a modifier - can be omitted from the basic structure of the sentence, leaving behind the following skeleton:
...with the simple thesis of consumers.
uh-oh.
consumers aren't a thesis.

this problem plagues both choice (a) and choice (b).

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by the way, if you didn't know that "whose" is perfectly well able to modify inanimate objects as well as people (i.e., it's not restricted to those words for which you'd use the pronoun "who")... now you know.

Can't we kick out A and B based on

A) comma + with = comma + prepositional modifier...modifies the entire previous clause.......which is not correct....it should modify the immediate preceding noun....so we should not use comma + preposition setup.
B) had is incorrect tense.....
C) where is used to modify places.
D) same as A.
E) Correct.

yes, correct.

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also, remember that of NOUN VERBing is an incorrect construction if the "VERBing" is actually meant to be the object of the preposition.
in this case, the consumers' HAVING the power is the actual thesis, not the consumers themselves, so "of consumers having" is wrong.

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for instance:
i took a picture of dolphins frolicking in the surf --> correct, since the picture was of dolphins (not "of frolicking")

Thanks Ron!

sure thing

I also get e in this problem.
However, I wish Ron, Manhantant experts and members to help me.

in A and D, COMMA+ WITH PHRASE can ONLY refer to

total previous clause

or can refer to

total previous clause OR immediately preceding noun.

What I mean is that

COMMA+WITH PHRASE (which is very popular in og and gmatprep) can refer to ONLY previous clause
or
can refer to previous clause OR immediately preceding noun

if the first case is correct, we will think A and D is wrong because of illogic
if the second case is correct, we will think A and D is wrong because of ambiguity.

But I wish to make clear of COMMA +WITH PHRASE, because is is said frequently that "with..." phrase can modify nouns or verbs depending on context.

because, if I remember correctly, there are cases in which COMMA WITH PHRASE, can refer/modify the noun immedeatly preceding. If I find, I will post the case here.

of course, WITH PHRASE without comma can modify a noun immediately preceding.

I know the 2 following cases for sure

COMMA+ WITH PHRASE or WITH PHRASE +COMMA can modify the main clause AND refer to a noun in the main clause. (" the diet is mainly vegeterian, with meat as a rarity" , a question in OG 10. In this case, 'with meat as a rarity mofiy the main clause but the phrase still have a noun to refer to.)

COMMA+WITH PHRASE or WITH PHRASE+COMMA can modify the main clause without refering to a noun in that clause in which case WITH PHRASE is called absolute phrase which has no symantic relation with the main clause (that is why "with..." phrase can not refer to any noun in the main clause)



A,B,C can be eliminated because "customer having" is wrong. "customers have" is correct.
D can be eliminated because it is wordy.

Pls, help. COMMAR +WITH PHRASE/ WITH PHRASE+COMMA . how it can be used.

another thing.

WITH PHRASE+ COMMA is called absolute phrase

only when

the phrase refer to no a noun in the main clause (of course, the phrase modify the total clause)

because

absolute phrase, by difinition, has no syntactic relation with the main clause. So, the phrase can not refer to any noun in the main clause. There is a gmatprep question which test the refering to no noun.

if the phrase modifies the total clause AND refers to no nouns in the main clause

the phrase will not be absolute phrase. It is prepositional phrase use as adverb.

I know that we should not go to hard grammar and that gmat tests errors in comparison among answer choices, but gmat tests how to use "with..' phrase and the question I pose is useful to discuss.

pls, explain the cases in which WITH PHRASE+ COMMA is used.

from existing official problems (including the ones you cited), we can infer that gmac is ok with using this kind of construction either (a) to modify a noun that precedes it, or (b) to modify a clause that precedes it.
so, as long as one of these two interpretations makes sense, the construction should be ok (provided that it doesn't contain any other errors).

I want to summarize the 3 uses of "with..." phrase

it can modify only a noun

the house with four walls is nice

it can modify a clause and refer to a noun in the clause

with good spirit, I learn gmat

it can modify a clause without refering to a noun in the clause. (pls, confirm this case, Ron, Manhantant expert) . in this case, the phrase is called absolute phrase- but forget this name because we do not need the name. we need the pattern.

with the mountain beautiful, I look around

above sentence can be write:

I look around. The mountain is beautiful.

there is a sentence in gmatprep similar to above sentence in which "with..." phrase refers to no noun. The gmatprep sentence is already discussed in this forum and a student tell us to read "doing grammar" by max. Other students said "with" in the sentence can be omitted. I can not find the sentence now.

Ron, Manhantan expert, please, confirm the 3 patterns aboves. specially, confirm and explain the third case.

Thank you, all of you.

thanghnvn, your first two examples look fine.

this third one i don't like so much:



this doesn't really make sense, because there's no reasonable way in which the beautiful qualities of the mountain actually modify my act of looking around. that may be something i found when i looked around, but it can't reasonably modify that action.
remember that "modify" is not a random grammatical notion; it actually means "give more information about something". the fact that the mountain is beautiful is not more information about how i looked around.

i think you may be talking about modifiers like this one:
A total of $100,000 was given to the school last month, with $50,000 specifically marked for scholarship funds for poor students.
in this instance, the "with..." modifier modifies the general idea of the preceding clause. but notice that it actually gives more information about that idea.

the following questions from gmatprep discussed in this forum shows that "with phrase" can be used without refering to a noun in the main clause. What I want to know is that there are 3 cases: "with phrase" modifying a noun, "with phrase" modifying a clause and refering to a noun in the clause and "with phrase" mofifying a clause without refering to a noun in that clause.

is my thinking correct?. pls, help.

Because of wireless service costs plummeting in the last year, and as mobile phones are increasingly common, many people now using their mobile phones to make calls across a wide region at night and on weekends, when numerous wireless companies provide unlimited airtime for a relatively small monthly fee.

A. Because of wireless service costs plummeting in the last year, and as mobile phones are increasingly common, many people

B. As the cost of wireless service plummeted in the last year and as mobile phones became increasingly common, many people

C. In the last year, with the cost of wireless service plummeting, and mobile phones have become increasingly common, there are many people

D. With the cost of wireless service plummeting in the last year and mobile phones becoming increasingly common, many people are

E. While the cost of wireless service has plummeted in the last year and mobile phones are increasingly common, many people are

well, let's see, you're asking us to confirm that there are three different uses of "with". you provided examples earlier, and Ron explained why your third example did not work. if you want us to confirm three different uses of "with" now, you must provide us with an example of each one so we can help you understand whether each one is correct or not. you have not made it clear what the example sentence you included at the bottom of your post has to do with anything. you cannot just say "the following sentence proves X" without explaining how it does so..

_________________
Tim Sanders
Manhattan GMAT Instructor

Ron, Manhantan experts, pls confirm my points
there are 3 uses of COMMA WITH PHRASE

1. it can modify a clause without refering to a specific noun in the clause as in the following sentence from gmatprep.

//Because of wireless service costs plummeting in the last year, and as mobile phones are increasingly common, many people now// using their mobile phones to make calls across a wide region at night and on weekends, when numerous wireless companies provide unlimited airtime for a relatively small monthly fee.

With the cost of wireless service plummeting in the last year and mobile phones becoming increasingly common, many people are

"with phrase" DOSE NOT refer to "people"

2, it can mofify a immidiately preceding noun as in the question of this topic.

3, it can modify a clause and refers to a noun in the clause

with good spirit, I learn gmat again. ("with phrase" refers to "I")

3 uses are correct. pls, help, confirm.

correct.
make sure you don't think that this is anything "special", though -- this is how prepositional phrases work in general when they are placed in this initial position.
i.e., if you have
prep phrase modifier + , + (main sentence)
... then the prep phrase modifier should describe the whole clause that follows, not just the subject.



this seems accurate.